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Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10137&t=56489		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Colin North [ Fri Mar 29, 2024 8:02 am ]
Post subject:  Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
Just got this in for repair.
This is my first electric head stock repair, I have done acoustic breaks previously.
It's a Les Paul standard, relatively new, and the automatic tuners were removed and replaced with locking Grovers.
These seem really quite heavy, client says they can be replaced with standard Klusons if appropriate to help with any future bumps.
Fell off its stand and snapped a few weeks ago.
Clean break, goes together quite well with only a few small chips missing at the edges.
Wondering what way is best to go about this?
Neck grain is pretty much straight.
At first look. my choices seem to be -
1) just glue it - HHG is my preferred glue, but will it have enough strength if it is just glued? I want to avoid epoxy if possible.
2) Glue and fit overlays front and back - Ebony/fibre and mahogany.
3) glue and fit curved mahogany splines each side of the truss rod + top veneer ebony or fibre
4) glue, splines in maple, fit mahogany backstrap ~ 2mm and also a new top veneer, either ebony or fibre. Probably the strongest repair but will be time consuming/expensive.
Any advice much appreciated.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Fri Mar 29, 2024 8:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
Okay, no sweat. First, align all the fibers you can on both pieces. If they won't align, see if you can carefully remove them. I use a toothbrush and an Exacto knife most of the time for these. If you have magnifiers with lights, study the breaks from all angles. Test fit the parts together until you get the best mating of the surfaces. Get your clamps ready, and use either Titebond or hide glue. Once you're ready, work quickly - then leave it clamped up for several hours. I usually leave it overnight if possible. Touching up the lacquer on the back of the neck shouldn't be a huge problem. The cracked overlay on the front of the peghead will be the toughest to match. Good luck, you got this!

As to splines - all you are doing is adding difficulty and complexity to the repair. It's not necessary, especially for such a low level peghead crack. Properly mated, it will be plenty strong. Again - you got this!
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Mar 29, 2024 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
What Chris said only we also use the Collins Headstock repair jig so we can clamp in many different axises forcing the two parts together and holding them there while the glue dries.

As Chris said splines are rarely a necessary thing or even a good idea and his point about adding complexity is always the enemy in repair work is a great point and our reality in my opinion too.

Chris's description of picking at the fibers until it all goes together perfectly is key as well. We use HHG and we have had our headstock repairs come back, several of them for a new break often close to the original break but NOT the original break. As such a well done headstock repair should be as strong as the wood was before the break if not stronger and with no splines.

So once it's put back together and sanded level and such we often fill the depression where the crack started with quality super glue, do not accelerate unless using Gluboost. That's scraped down, wet sanded, etc with some finish touch-up if necessary.

Wanted to add one more thing. I introduced a new way to price guitar repairs bringing my GE manager hat to Lutherie and I call it value based pricing.

If we have a head stock jig that took years to develop and Dave in particular has a superb skill set that also took years to develop and a huge investment in $$$ over time I want that considered in what we charge.

A headstock break repair is saving an instrument and as such it may prevent a client from having to spend several thousand or more to replace say a Custom Shop Les Paul (Les Pauls are one of the most common head stock breaks we do, Gibson in particular we see far more of than anything else).

So where we once charge maybe $160 to repair one I raised our prices to more than twice that and no one ever pushed back because they understand that $300 - 400 is a small price to pay to save a $4,000 guitar.

The finish touch-up will be the opportunity to make the repair invisible too. And regarding my theory and now practice on pricing when we, Luthiers are compensated well we don't mind spending extra time to make it perfect. At least we don't.

This can be done without a gig but the results are not as good and there is FAR more room for misalignments that will make the finishing and touch-up a nightmare.

Dave's jig is pictured on the OLF many times and on the Internet too he has a Youtube page. Countless copies of it have been made, feel free.

Some OLFers have built it too I just can't remember who.
Author:  bobgramann [ Fri Mar 29, 2024 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
I’ve had to redo a couple that others tried with Titebond. Of course, that required removing the Titebond. That was the hard part of the repair. After cleaning up, I was able to get each to fit well enough to go with HHG. Then, it was just touching up the finish. Because of the Titebond mess if it needs to be redone, I recommend the HHG.
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
bobgramann wrote:
I’ve had to redo a couple that others tried with Titebond. Of course, that required removing the Titebond. That was the hard part of the repair. After cleaning up, I was able to get each to fit well enough to go with HHG. Then, it was just touching up the finish. Because of the Titebond mess if it needs to be redone, I recommend the HHG.


Poor prior work is one of the reasons we will decline on some jobs since we guarantee our work. We've never had any trouble with Titebond being the offender in the poor prior work but we have seen all glues including HHG fail because of a poor fit prior to gluing. Or, in other words I would not fault Titebond and I would not hesitate to use it if one does not have the chops for HHG, not speaking of Colin of course he has the chops.

But HHG will fail quick as can be if people don't preheat or be mindful of the open time requirements that are only really seconds. My advice to a novice reading this and insisting to reglue one of these themselves understanding that a poor job will destroy the value of the instrument is if you don't have HHG chops don't use it go with Titebond Original.

My advice to someone who is the owner of the broken guitar don't think that you can get it fixed on the cheap by someone who does not know what they are doing and if that does not work take it to a proper Luthier and pay the price. Many of us will decline on a job because of poor prior work. Many who don't wish they had and some who won't decline and should have will damage the instrument. Headstock breaks are exactly one of the repairs that you don't get a second shot at. Take it on and damage the instrument and it's often not reversible.

Conversely an experienced Luthier with a proper headstock jig can reglue something like we see above and make it invisible and as strong as or stronger than before the break.

Rick Turner RIP posted on the OLF once that for tight breaks that are difficult to open and get glue, HHG in them he would inject hot water and/or use compressed air to blow the glue in the far reaches of a tight crack. I've done that too and it works great. Rick was big on messing with the viscosity of glue, Mario too and that opens up a world of new possibilities.

Going back to splines they have a place in a severe break that does not piece back together well and/or lots of wood is missing. This is not the case here. But if you resort to splines you are in for a long, hard slog with lots of risk. Some Luthiers would prefer to make a new neck over splines at times too, we did that a few times but that is how severe the break and wood damage has to be for splines to be considered.
Author:  Dave Rickard [ Fri Mar 29, 2024 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
Just wanted to add that I had a similar head stock break on my first build, I used words I didn't know I knew.
I made sure I had a clean fit no loose fibers and used my redneck version of the Collins Headstock repair jig.
I did use tite bond original. The fix has lasted a few years now and seems to be holding.
It's my opinion that getting the fit right and having a fixture that clamps in many different axises forcing the two parts together and holding them there while the glue dries is very important.
Author:  Hesh [ Sat Mar 30, 2024 4:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
Dave Rickard wrote:
Just wanted to add that I had a similar head stock break on my first build, I used words I didn't know I knew.
I made sure I had a clean fit no loose fibers and used my redneck version of the Collins Headstock repair jig.
I did use site bond original. The fix has lasted a few years now and seems to be holding.
It's my opinion that getting the fit right and having a fixture that clamps in many different axises forcing the two parts together and holding them there while the glue dries is very important.


Beautiful job Dave and I agree completely with your analysis. [:Y:]
Author:  Colin North [ Sat Mar 30, 2024 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
Looks like I've got a project coming up..........
Author:  fumblefinger [ Sat Mar 30, 2024 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
Dave, does this qualify as "Redneck"?
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Mar 31, 2024 4:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
fumblefinger wrote:
Dave, does this qualify as "Redneck"?


Pretty cool Al, good going!
Author:  Dave Rickard [ Sun Mar 31, 2024 7:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
fumblefinger wrote:
Dave, does this qualify as "Redneck"?


Nope, looks like something an engineer would make.
Ya need some crooked 2x4s and bent rusty nails. :D
Author:  Colin North [ Sun Mar 31, 2024 10:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
laughing6-hehe
I'l be sticking with something more like this...
Author:  rbuddy [ Sun Mar 31, 2024 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
Nice jigs you guys. And I don't have one, how the heck is that? I may have to give up my temporary spur of the moment disposable approach and build a nice one so I can keep up? Seriously, thanks for posting.
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Mar 31, 2024 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
Colin North wrote:
laughing6-hehe
I'l be sticking with something more like this...


Colin that's Dave's right? I'm thrown off because the bench and carpet is three shops back so old pic of it.

Our's has repaired hundreds of headstock breaks often with no clue it ever broke.

Anyway I want to give Dave attribution, Dave Collins since he was kind enough to share images of his with the forum.

Not shown is a drawer filled with cauls made from tracings of the top of the headstocks so that the tops clamps can bear on a caul that bears on the top of the headstock and push it downward as the other clamps prevent it from moving outward and suck. Works great, super easy and very effective.
Author:  Colin North [ Sun Mar 31, 2024 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
Hesh wrote:
Colin North wrote:
laughing6-hehe
I'l be sticking with something more like this...


Colin that's Dave's right? ............

Yup.
Author:  fumblefinger [ Sun Mar 31, 2024 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
The nice part about the over center clamps is that you can adjust them to the right pressure BEFORE you put glue in the joint. When I was using regular clamps, I over tightened one once at the "tail" of the break. The result was a seam that had been pushed past flush. More sanding work and more finish exposure.
Author:  Colin North [ Mon Apr 01, 2024 5:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
Found during my research a basic HEADSTOCK GLUING JIG is produced and sold commercially.

https://guitarsandwoods.com/headstock-gluing-jig.html
Author:  Hesh [ Tue Apr 02, 2024 8:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
Colin North wrote:
Found during my research a basic HEADSTOCK GLUING JIG is produced and sold commercially.

https://guitarsandwoods.com/headstock-gluing-jig.html


Cool, kind of a light weight for the job and missing a number of features on our jig but likely better than nothing, maybe. ;)
Author:  Chris Pile [ Tue Apr 02, 2024 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
It would need to be augmented by the end user. But it's a place to start! I'm not crazy about the particleboard.... I'd like it better out of thick plywood or an aluminum slab.
Author:  Colin North [ Tue Apr 02, 2024 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
I was tempted a little, but it doesn't have the functionally that's needed for more complicated jobs. I've ordered up bits to build something more like the "Collins" jig..
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
Colin I posted a few more pics of it in a new thread here. Hope this helps my friend.
Author:  Colin North [ Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
Thanks Hesh.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Wed Apr 10, 2024 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
Dave Rickard wrote:
Just wanted to add that I had a similar head stock break on my first build, I used words I didn't know I knew.
I made sure I had a clean fit no loose fibers and used my redneck version of the Collins Headstock repair jig.
I did use tite bond original. The fix has lasted a few years now and seems to be holding.
It's my opinion that getting the fit right and having a fixture that clamps in many different axises forcing the two parts together and holding them there while the glue dries is very important.

Wow! I've never been able to hide one that well. The OP is lucky it's blacks because that hides really easy.
Author:  Colin North [ Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
See how this goes then.Image

Sent from my moto g(50) using Tapatalk
Author:  Hesh [ Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock break repair advice/suggestions
It looks fantastic Colin good going!!!

Is that a Les Paul? I would say over 50% of the head stock breaks we repair are Les Pauls too.
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